PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

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Brian
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Brian »

tknospdr wrote:So if you put together a package with everything you've done to your spider so far to sell, approximately what would it cost?
Watch the site, many of the items are already there including the light battery kit, the Progress Springs, the Koni Shocks, the various wheel choices shown in this thread, etc. The exhaust pieces will be a while before they are priced and in production and on the site.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Brian »

And here is where we stand currently in the battle of power between ND Miata and Fiat124. Let me say up front this is NOT a fair comparison, we have a FULL YEAR of development into the ND, many hours of dyno tune, many hours for development of gorgeous longtube header, etc. In comparison the Fiat124 just got here, what I think is very interesting is how fast it is catching up on the numbers. Numbers do NOT tell the whole story, but it's an interesting story nonetheless!

Fiat is RED lines (160 HP, 200 Ft/lbs Torque)
ND Miata is BLUE Lines (193 HP, 190+ Ft/lbs Torque)
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DYNO-FiatvsND.jpg
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Chuck H
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Chuck H »

Looks good!

I'm really surprised how badly the ND is beating the 124 down under 2500 RPM, though. I figured the Fiat's turbo would be making a tiny bit of boost down there helping out the low end a little. How the heck did Mat get so much torque out of the ND at only 2100 RPM??? :shock:

I'm sure you folks will get the 124 up to some more impressive high end numbers. It's always easier to cheat on a turbo car and just up the boost to get a bit more kick out of it! :wink:
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Brian
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Brian »

Yep, will keep at it...but will we be able to show the TRUE numbers on traditional in ground dyno?

Our friends at Eurocompulsion have years of development on this 1.4T Fiat motor and tell us what they see here is the ECU already pulling upper RPM power because it knows it is on the dyno (lack of front wheel movement, etc). Many folks know from the VW scandal that lots of modern cars know when they are on the dyno. The opinion of the Eurocompulsion crew is that we are already making more power than we know here above the 4250 rpm mark. See their writeup at THIS LINK, scroll down the page after the oil change info if you don't want to read the water injection and other interesting stuff....until you reach their Fiat dyno discussion.

Time to dust off my Auterra Dash Dyno and give it a whirl...
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Chuck H
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Chuck H »

That's going to make it more interesting to try to tune the 124 if you're fighting against emissions test code in the ECU that dials back power to keep emissions down when it detects the car being on a dyno. But then again, road tuning could be a lot of fun in that car!

Still can't decide whether I like Fiat's interpretation of the ND body style or Mazda's better. They're both beautiful roadsters, both with their own unique character! :D
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tknospdr
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by tknospdr »

Chuck H wrote:That's going to make it more interesting to try to tune the 124 if you're fighting against emissions test code in the ECU that dials back power to keep emissions down when it detects the car being on a dyno. But then again, road tuning could be a lot of fun in that car!

Still can't decide whether I like Fiat's interpretation of the ND body style or Mazda's better. They're both beautiful roadsters, both with their own unique character! :D
That was my dilemma, in the end, the lack of manual transmissions and my impatience won out. I got the Miata with the B/BBS package. Got a great deal at my local dealership. I basically got the upgrade for free.
Now saving for the 50/50 exhaust and tune upgrade. Dealer says if I let them install it my warranty stays intact too.
Woot.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Brian »

Our Fiat124 is BACK TO STOCK so the exhaust bits can go off to production. With the car back to stock we figured we would take opportunity to baseline the Fiat124 again, and use a different brand of dyno. So here it is on popular Dynojet, made pretty much the same numbers as DynoDynamics unit, just a few points higher on the DynoJet. Go back to page two of thread and you see stock DynoDynamics numbers 145 hp and 170, here on Dynojet we are 150/178. Thus appears Dynojet is a bit more optimistic and/or our Fiat has loosened up a bit too. As always, what matters in dyno testing is BEFORE and AFTER of SAME CAR on SAME DYNO. Once we have production exhaust bits will likely hit both dynos again for additional data. Lots more dyno fun to come!
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Brian »

Damping Force Comparison Chart.

Dyno sheet showing the rebound (top side) and compression (bottom side) and a number chart. It shows the OE 124 Tokicos, the standard model ND Tokicos (basically the same rebound but 124 compression is notably softer front and rear) as well as the OE ND Club Bilsteins (not Cup as marked, not to be confused with MX5 Cup racing shocks) and the KONI Sports adjusted to the full soft setting. The chart is in Newtons of force and Meters per second of piston speed. The general rule of thumb is that the KONI Sport’s maximum adjustment is about double the min setting pretty much across the piston speed range which means that it is quite wide and more than covers the front Club’s rebound force once adjuster into the range. You can also see that the front Club’s compression force is really extremely high which accounts for lots of harshness and the great disparity from the aggressive Club front valving to the not particularly aggressive Club rear. The KONI valving even at full soft is much more balanced end to end (identical in bump, different in rebound) with Sport rear higher in bump and rebound even at full soft vs. the Club rear.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by Brian »

Time for Limited Slip!

Fiat does not offer a limited slip that can be installed in the Classica, you need to buy the Abarth version that is not available yet. Asked them if they could sell us the part, but they are not convinced it will install in the housing of the regular 124, though I imagine it will. So, what to do for a limited slip? Looking at the housing it is immediately clear the diff housing is the same as our ND Miata. So, perhaps you can just order the Mazda Limited Slip internals from Mazda for the ND and install it in the Fiat? NOPE... The Fiat uses a version of the NC transmission and the ND uses the new Skyactiv trans and the ratios are totally different, and the final drive ratio is radically different.. Result is that if you try to install the Mazda limited slip into the Fiat's rear housing, you need massive shims, too much shim for it to work and last for long. So, what can you do? What we did is install an ND rear housing with ND rear 2.9 ratio and Mazda limited slip that fits that 2.9. That means our Fiat now does 67 mph in 2nd gear! Stock Fiat 2nd gear was too short for local autocross events before which typically get a bit over 60mph, and too much time is lost having to grab third gear.

Picture of our head wrench Rocky finishing the install today.
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FiatLimitedSlip.jpg
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mini22
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Post by mini22 »

So when can we expect to see the exhaust option on the 124? Further will you be considering any underdrive pulley option? This was something that Road Race Motors Sports offered on the 500 Abarth. Any plans for an intake or a piggyback ECU? Eurocompulsion is currently offering a piggy back for the 124.
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