how much camber?

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how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:21 pm

just got the new progress springs, getting them installed friday. already have the sway bars, and the adjustable Koni shocks and the fmc bump stops. since this is no longer an everyday driver, I'm willing to be more aggressive on the alignment for the last 4 auto crosses and and one track day this season(2013 NC club PRHT). running the RE-71's as dedicated autox tires. How much camber does this car like? I'm at 1.6 neg front and back now, and with the lower springs i should be able to get more, right? should i go zero toe front and rear or a little toe out up front? thanks for all the help. (this car followed your 2012 PHRT project pretty closely, and I'm very happy with it so far.) thanks david in Nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby Brian » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:28 am

Likely you can get more, our "Project Blue" on coilovers runs:

Front
-2.8 camber
toe zero
Caster 6.5

Rear
-2.3 camber
Toe in 1/32nd per side.

On the lowering springs you may not get this much....
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:22 pm

Brian, I had the Progress springs installed yesterday, same shop that installed the Konis 6 months ago. Followed the instructions as per the mazda TSB, after rereading all the posts in this forum plus the ones in mazda.net. Got -2.3 camber in the front, -2 in the back, 6.5 caster, zero toe front an rear, then set the new Goodwin end links with no preload. Two problems, both rear springs didn't match the spring perches on the Konis; that is, when the springs were set in the ends of the perches on the shocks top and bottom, the shocks were off 30-40 degrees from allowing the shock to fit over the bottom post.we had to "re-clock" the shocks on the perches just to get the shocks to mount, leaving about an inch space between the end of the coil and the welded perch on the shock. Have you seen this before and it is it anything that can be a problem? Second the right rear is now 3/4 inch higher than the left rear, even after 100 miles and the second loosening and retightening on the ground, after putting pressure on that corner, just like was suggested. here's my measurements: LF 12 1/2, RF 13 1/4, LR 13, RR 13 3/4. If this was a stock car, I would say it had a couple rounds of "wedge" in it! I love how the car is driving, and handling with the progress bars and the spring/koni combination, but what do you suggest regarding the spring/koni fit issue and the height issue? thanks
David nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby Brian » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:00 am

Give it some miles and then try the 'Rocky method' on that tall rear corner per the instructions in the product description and likely you get a little more movement there if it does not settle on its own. The Koni perches are different than some of the other choices, like the Bilstein, that part of the spring ends goes flat with weight of the car anyway so it won't matter.
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:21 am

OK I guess I'll keep trying that. Would changing those bushings to the Powerflex ones on your site take care of the problem? With so many people having this issue, one would think there was a solution by now. What has been the feedback on those Powerflex bushings? Do those upper rear links unbolt easy enough to just take them out
and press in the new bushings? Thanks again for any advise. David Nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby Brian » Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:09 pm

Powerflex bushings will not make much difference. It's the design of the arm holding the bushing, not the bushing itself. Because the design of the arm holding the bushing results in bushings getting pressed and twisted, the poly bushings can be even more likely to stick.
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:56 am

ok last Thursday followed your recommendations to again do the "rocky method", did all 4 corners, loosening the upper a arm bolts in the front and the rear, jacking up each corner in turn while the other corners were on ramps, then re-torqueing to spec. this was done with the sway bar links unhooked too. unfortunately the right side is still 3/4 inch higher than the left. then drove to a 2 day autocross with 75 mile distance each way, each day, for around 500 total since install. What next? Because i did not want to mess up the alignment while in my driveway, I did not loosen any of the lower links with adjustable bolts when I went through this procedure. Do I need to have this done again on an alignment rack and loosen up the lower alignment bolts too? thanks David in Nashville 2013 club PRHT 6 speed
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Re: how much camber?

Postby Brian » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:35 am

Without having all the links loose, you really did not do the procedure. Thus, no surprise nothing changed as it was still a locked system. If it moves, you will gain camber at that corner. So, if you want it to change you must be willing to accept some shift in the alignment, otherwise cannot expect it to move. Having it all loose to do procedure right does not necessarily mean you need new alignment after, likely only going to get another -.3 of camber if it drops half an inch, etc.
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:37 am

ok thanks i will get it re aligned and redo the procedure with all the links loose. wish me luck!
david in nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby jboemler » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:51 pm

Be sure you do the loosening FIRST, and get the alignment afterwards.
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:25 pm

I have a friend and fellow miata racer who is a mechanic at the local mazda dealer. As a "plan B" in case my original shop that did the spring install can't fix this, I asked him about how they do the Mazda TSB, if only so I am not missing any instructions (along with yours) to take to my shop. He tried to look up the TSB, but not knowing what year or model car, he couldn't find it. he asked I could give him the TSB number so he can look it up. Does anyone know more details on the Mazda TSB? thanks to all! David in Nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:48 pm

Brian, I wanted to commend Ryan's help in getting me prepared for my open track day last Saturday at Nashville Superspeedway. The porterfield RA-1 pads worked great, had to get get OEM replacement rotors at the last minute, but had a great day, hitting around 110 on the high bank Nascar turn 3 and 4 and on through the tri-oval before diving off onto the road course around turn one and two and onto the back straight chicane. Had a great instructor who had his NA spec Miata there too, who showed me how to pass BMW's lol. The next day, ran autocross in Huntsville Alabama. I would think the car is now fully settled on the new Progress springs and those pesky bushings, but here are my measurements when sitting on a flat surface: 13" on ALL locations except right rear which is 13 1/2. My initial thought is that based on what I've seen on this forum, the Progress/Koni combination should have about 1/2" rake, and my problem might be that the left rear is too low? what would cause only one corner to be 1/2" off? When I had the Koni shocks installed last spring, I also installed the FCM sport bumpstops. Do I need to get the ones for lowered cars now, or trim the ones I have? Any ideas on what my next step is? the car seems to drive ok, not doing anything weird, and was really stable at speed on the track, so should I even be trying to correct this? Thanks DavidM Nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby Brian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:40 pm

Any Miata that usually has just one person in it all the time will tend to be lowest at the corner where that person's weight is located, driver's front. Conversely, highest corner tends to be passenger side rear....opposite of that driver's front corner. Think of your weight in the car as beating down on the bushings daily, it makes that front driver's corner tend to settle faster and lower than the rest, and the back passenger corner will tend to sit higher. Thus, the only way to consistently get all four corners perfect on height is coilovers so you can change and adjust as things settle. Now the irony is that racers will use those coilovers to corner balance the car with the entire car sitting on four scales, one under each wheel, and they will intentionally jack that passenger rear corner higher than the rest to shift weight that direction (like the longer leg of a stool having that corner a bit higher will shift some load onto that corner). In other words, I would not worry about it, having that passenger rear corner slightly higher is helping your weight balance.
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Re: how much camber?

Postby DavidM938 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:15 am

brian thanks for helping with that explanation. I do wonder about the bumpstops because especially on bumpy roads the car skitters like it is indeed "on" the bumpstops. the overall ride is a lot more busy than I had expected so do you think I should go with the shorter FCM stops? Again, here is my setup: Yellow Koni shocks, progress spring, progress sway bars, full stiff front, full soft rear, GWR links,FCM 58 sport stops. street tires are Michelin Pilot super sports on the stock rims, auto cross setup is Re-71 on 8" 6ULs. I would like to get it to be a bit more compliant on the street now that the racing season is over here in Tennessee. What would you recommend? thanks for all the help DavidM Nashville
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Re: how much camber?

Postby Brian » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:44 am

Yes, you are certainly riding the stops over rough roads with the KONI in there in addition to the lowering springs, and the short stops should indeed cut down on the chatter over rough road sections.
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