Back in Winning Blue. Our 'new' Project Blue!

[Brian]

Hi Jeff

Sorry, not revealing primary size at this time....in part because still testing different choices (will be back on the dyno tomorrow morning with yet another prototype). Yes, two O2 connections. Sorry, crystal ball not near clear enough to put date for production yet.

[JeffReaves]

That is fine. Unfortunately, the racing beat mid pipe I have has no bungs on the pipe and I rather not start welding anything onto it yet, so the current max power header just won't work for me. I'm not entirely convinced that I will be keeping the racing beat mid pipe. It produces an annoying whine/whistle under anything but light foot acceleration. Do you have any idea of what the exhaust port diameter is? I'm just curious.

[Chuck H]

I did a lot of searching on-line to try to find out the exhaust port diameters when I was researching headers. The only number I found was 1.5" diameter, but I'm not sure how reliable the info is. I believe that it's the same size for both the 2.0L and 2.5L heads as well.

[Brian]

More testing to come...soon!

[Brian]

More testing! Feels like Deja Vu, these results remind me lots of our 2.0 engine testing. Had our friends at PPE make us a long tube with BIGGER primaries, and we matched that against version of ours with bigger primaries (note I also moved collector up out of the flange to have room for O2 bungs and other changes, made this test unit about 2 years ago but it proved overkill on the normally aspirated 2.0, now it looks to be perfect for 2.5 so it may yet give birth to a new finished product). The goal of the testing is to find how much header the 2.5 really wants.

Green high line is testing from prior page of Prototype RoadsterSport with bigger primaries. Blue/Red lines are larger primary PPE. Low Pink line is best stock results 2.0, just to show how much the 2.5 is massively stronger EVERYWHERE. Results remind me very much of what we got on the 2.0 with smaller versions of these headers, the torque lines cross repeatedly at the low to mid range with the PPE having more total area under the curve in that range, but the big fat shortie owns the top end with more total area under the curve and better peak numbers. So, where to YOU want your power? We hope to put BOTH of these choices in production this year, both should be good options for supercharged 2.0 owners too.

Youtube of dyno today...CLICK HERE

Got some emails this week asking what is new on our big shortie header project for supercharged customers and 2.5 liter conversion customers. The answer is: still chasing lots of little refinements. Here is the latest updated version of our prototype...compare to picture of our earlier prototype a few pages back and you will quickly see this is a MONSTER HEADER with even bigger primaries, and a larger and longer collection section (also includes a few flow tricks on the inside you cannot see). Not ready to lock in the final design yet, not ready to reveal specs, got a few more ideas to test...but I will tease you guys and tell you results have climbed even higher as a result of the refinements and additional tweaks with torque now solidly over 200 ft/lbs and climbing. It cracks me up that some self proclaimed experts in other forums have said it is not possible and not realistic to get north of 200 ft/lbs at the wheels with normally aspirated stock 2.5 motor with stock cams, stock pistons, etc....those are guys that don't think outside the box and don't actually test and test and test like we do...which is only way to exceed preconceived notions of what is possible. Our success here gives me the same joy I feel when we show up to autocross and track events and crush the field with 'just a Miata,' doing what the other guys say is impossible and making little 'giant killers' is what I consider some of the most fun we can have with these great little cars.

[Brian]

Dyno Results....new high for stock internals 2.5 of 207 hp and 224 ft/lbs of torque!

More work to do on making this design and pipe size easier to install because install of the prototype with these monster primaries required full removal of the alternator and disconnect of the passenger side engine mount (same challenge with PPE Long tube headers). Fun to compare to results a few pages back with supercharger on 2.0 motor which was 244hp at the top end but just 200 ft/lbs of torque. That means we have yet to equal the peaky hp of that setup but we are already making about 25 ft/lbs more torque! With the test results this morning we are about to close the header discovery chapter of the 2.5 experiment. Right now what that chart is telling us, and the same drop off at the top for our smaller tube versions tested prior to this unit, is that we need some cams to breath more lift into the top of the rpm range. We will install cams and then test again.

In sum, tested primary sizes 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, in many different configs. Very interesting that the 2.5 with even standard factory compression doesn't show full potential until at least 1.7 inch primaries. Anything smaller than 1.7 limits the torque the 2.5 can make. We figured out years ago that my high compression (12.5 to 1) 2.5 NCLIGHT 'needed' 2.0 primaries to really do best on the dyno, with a result of 270+. Our testing here has taught us that even the standard factory compression 2.5 wants at least 1.7 and going 1.8 size primaries did just a hair better still... and leaves some headroom for customers pushing more air because of head work, cams, boost, etc. Thus, production RoadsterSport Race shortie header will be 1.8 size primaries. I expect this choice will hit the sweet spot for most 2.5 customers, as well as boosted customers with both 2.0 and 2.5. Once we finished results we got a nice call from friends at Mazda about using this new header for the World Challenge 2.5 cars, we will do our best to push production so we can supply first product 2 months from now. Don't yet have price figured out....but will include our usual lifetime warranty and all stainless production. Check back next week for results with cams!

[grippy]

Great results Brian, nice work! Is that still with your 2.5" mid pipe? Do you think there may be more gains to be had there?
Waiting patiently to place my order

[Brian]

Yes, that is with our standard RoadsterSport 2.5 inch midpipe WITH CONVERTER.....and RoadsterSport SuperQ muffler.

Figure just a few points extra if you used our 2.5 inch midpipe without converter (our converter is VERY high flow single biscuit unit, think of it as just half a converter so not much extra to be found from leaving it out).

[AZ Sun Lover]

Looks nice Brian, just one question for now will the heat shield for the ABS brake line fit back into place? Looks like the center two runners come out more on this header. Might just be angle of the photo.
Stupid question what size are the runners on your RS Max Power Header. I *think* the Goodwin / PPE is now 1.5" yes?

AZ

[Brian]

I left the heatshield off to take the photo, but it should fit with production piece once shield is bent back a bit.
Original PPE Long Tube was 1.5 inches and that was always too small for 2.0 according to my testing, so we recently started offering "Good-Win Racing Version PPE Long Tube" for customers here in 1.6 size. RoadsterSport Max Power was developed on the 2.0 motor with 1.6 size from the start and that will continue unchanged, this bigger unit is focused on the 2.5 application though customers with boosted or higher compression 2.0 motors may want this bigger unit too.