PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:50 am

Indeed it appears to be removable hardtop...and might fit ND Miata, we had to make different rear deck mounts so same top we offer from DG would fit ND and Fiat.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:18 am

Interesting to see nose off the Fiat. With turbo/supercharger added to our ND Miata projects we have chased cooling issues, makes us VERY curious to see how Fiat works with the same space. Unlike 1 grille for ND, the Fiat has 2 grilles and both are functional, lower grille feeds cool air on direct path to intercooler, upper grille with big baffled funnel feeds cool air for radiator. Stock Fiat radiator twice as thick as stock ND radiator too!
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:54 am

Official Weight Check...Replacement Bits are about 23 pounds.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby jpwfz6 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 am

Hi Brian, thanks for the great photo,.. a picture is worth a thousand words.

Do you have a weight for the stock intercooler bits?

And will you be carrying the OFT for the spider when it's released?
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:( Sold: 2006 Winning Blue, 2.5L, Progress springs, KYB shocks, Michelin PSS, Full GWR street exhaust.
:D Current: 2017 Fiat 124 Abarth, Rosso red, M/T, Progress springs, Wilwood BBK, Full GWR exhaust
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:26 am

Got a chance today to weigh up the stock bits removed from car.

Yes, will be offering OFT tune when available.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:37 pm

More EC Intercooler Pics.

Very nice kit, big end tanks, big connections, big silicon tubes.

Stock tubes are a total mess of tight bends by comparison....well done EC.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 pm

Now that competitors are releasing downpipes, folks asking why we have not done it. We had our first highflow cat prototype over a year ago in testing on our Fiat 124, made several more, and was just not happy with results of any 3 or 4 inch diameter core. Below is one hand made 4 inch core example from last year with heat shield attached, spec is much like competitors are releasing as a 'finished' item except we were adding a heat shield we feel is really necessary in the tight space. We could sell same as the other guys are selling...except I want our product to exceed expectations, not just sell something that works 'okay.' A year of testing has taught us a lot with the downpipe....including that we really want to stuff a 5 inch diameter core in the space if we can for best flow, longevity, less chance of codes, reasonable sound control....much like we have done with our new ND Miata MaxMidpipe 5 inch 200 CPI converter....which took over a year to get right and now is acknowledged as best engineered midpipe available for ND.

FiatD.jpg


We have also learned that a real heat shield is required....ceramic coating is just not enough in the tight space. Those other guys selling a ceramic coated 3 or 4 inch converter will have unhappy customers when lifespan for nearby water lines is cut short....eventually they will bake hard and crack, leak, etc. I give the coating 2 years max effective life in that space, we killed one of the better known brand of coatings in that tight space in a single track weekend...just baked it too much.

Challenges to getting a 5 inch diameter downpipe core to fit include that you cannot fit ANY off-the-self 5 inch converter in the space. So ...we went direct to a converter core maker, put our Fiat 124 on their lift, laser scanned the space, and designed in CAD software a CUSTOM fabricated 5 inch diameter 200 CPI core from scratch to fit the space. Nobody else will bother to put in this much effort.... but it is the right way to get it done for MAX flow, the right fit, and max longevity.

Perhaps we call it MaxDownPipe? Our custom designed and fabricated 5 inch diameter downpipe will easily outflow any 3 or 4 inch diameter core the other guys are releasing and yet have much higher chance of not tossing codes, and will last much longer, particularly in motorsports use....and be THE CHOICE for anyone going with stuffed turbo or bigger turbo upgrades.

Ultimately....I might do like the Abarth Rally 124 and move the converter further down the system. Having the turbo blowing direct into the converter is good for emissions of a mildly driven street car but terrible for every other performance metric. The further down the system we push the converter the more life it will have, and the less back pressure (faster spool). Watch the night starts of the Fiat 124 rally and notice the tailpipe glows the moment they rev the motor to start the stage...because the 'green' rules of the series now require a converter be retained so they literally run it as the muffler at the back of the car where it will run cooler and have the least impact on turbo spool. That's not practical for street cars but what could be easily accomplished is putting the converter under the car in the midpipe location where the ND Miata normally has a converter and the Fiat version of same chassis still has the big space that is lined with thermal reflecting material for placement of the cat in the Miata version of this car. We would need to make an extension cord for the second O2 sensor...but that's easily done. The only thing holding me back from doing that now is many customers are SCCA racing, we want to use this car for SCCA events, and the SCCA rules require the converter move no more than a few inches from stock location.
0215180558a_HDR.jpg


Rally124.jpg
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:42 am

Streets of Willow Springs Raceway Today.

Dropped another second...1.4 liters of Fiat Fury now into 1.25s here. Credit EC Intercooler Upgrade...and our OFT Tablet Reflash for more consistent power.

During the 'Family Feud' shootout with Grassroots MotorSports Magazine the Fiat was fast yet frustrating, because first lap was needed to warm the tires...and then you had laps 2 and 3 to hit your marks or the power fell off so seriously with heat soak that the opportunity was gone. Today our best was only 1 second faster...yet that doesn't tell the whole story, the car was MUCH more consistent. Last session of my day today the ambient was 80F and best lap...was lap 7 because, though there was still some drop off in power, the car was consistent enough to allow the driver to get back to working with lines and throttle tip in points.

At this point, this Fiat needs two things: BIGGER TURBO....and AERO. Too much time lost to corner speeds without aero to help stick the car, and too much time lost on the straights with the little turbo not able to really deliver the torque the rest of the car is ready to handle.

Post event check of the car finds that I destroyed the front brake rotors. Had our big 12.88 brakes on this car for the Grassroots MotorSports shootout but pulled those from the Fiat so we could do some testing of 16x9 Storms. Didn't get that done but still had stock diameter brakes on the Fiat for this event and they are just not near enough, I found myself braking early, with much less confidence in the brakes, and still toasted them. Will be back with our 12.88 big brakes on the car again....and plan to see the Fiat 124 turn a 1:24 lap...soon!

Good news on the OFT REFLASH....no codes, just good steady power for entire event.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby pikeman » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 am

Thanks for such great pics Brian. It's nice to see the guts of the car, and also appreciate that Fiat engineers spent time getting the airflow right. I especially appreciate the big radiator. When my Miata radiator died some years ago I got a the smaller Koyo instead of the typical replacement, so I appreciate a hefty cooling system.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:21 pm

First testing today with 5 inch body 200 CPI converter...and I am in love. A year of testing various converter choices and finally confirmed the direction we want to go. Does not raise the sound level as much as 4 inch diameter choice, which might disappoint some of you, but flows FAR BETTER, will last far longer, and serve us MUCH better when it comes time for turbo upgrade, etc. Our reflash is working perfect with it, slight AFR adjustment within what we hoped to see. It is a VERY tight fit...yet the really trick part is we found a way to do it in a manner that recycles the factory converter heat shield. The factory heat shield is a VERY effective hydroformed heat shield, far more effective than micro thin ceramic coating....and looking under your hood we see a totally factory appearance. Nonetheless, sorry to report this item will start NON-CARB and that means not for sale or shipment to any California address. Down the road my hope is super trick next generation octagonal cell cores will let us make a CARB version....all the flow and CA legal too!
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:20 pm

0221181111_HDR.jpg



We got the Fiat 124 project out for Dyno time.... with Shiv's OFT (Open Flash Tablet) Reflash! First, a word about Dynos. A dyno is merely a tool for before/after testing. Difficult to impossible to compare peak numbers on one brand of dyno to another brand of dyno. Moreover we know there are some vendors out there telling you that they can get you over 40 hp with some plug and play piggyback or reflash, and perhaps there is even a special Unicorn Farts brand of dyno that you will likely never find that supports their results....but our bet is that customers will never be able to repeat those results. We want to give you results you can repeat on any four wheel dyno.

We bought the top brands of piggyback that were available and tested them on two wheel dyno....AND four wheel dyno. The Madness shop makes no claims for particular numbers that we have seen yet won the contest of piggybacks in our testing. Lowest BLUE line in graph below was stock. Middle line was best for our three piece exhaust system of Crossover Pipe, Midpipe, Muffler Delete. Highest line with piggyback and prototype highflow cat. Tried the Madness piggyback in all modes and removed from the car, then put back on car, as expected the 'SPORT PLUS' gets the best result and that result is another 10+HP.

Fiatdynolocal.png
Fiatdynolocal.png (654.93 KiB)


Now for dyno of the reflash. Different dyno....much more conservative dyno! Lowest line in dyno below is the winning combo from above, the most successful of the piggybacks that we could buy, from Madness, again in Sport Mode with full exhaust system. We did all the modes again on this four wheel Mustang dyno and repeated the same results we got on the two wheel dyno, which is to say the Sport+ mode got us best results and those results were consist 10+ hp gains over stock calibration...and then we left just that best result on the screen as our new 'baseline' from which to test the reflash against the best of the piggybacks.

So, again the low line below is not stock calibration, that low line is best with full exhaust system and Madness Piggyback. This particular four wheel dyno is a Mustang dyno, well known in the industry as the 'Heart Breaker' because it reads lower than just about every other dyno. We really don't care if it reads low because remember what we are looking for is the delta, the difference between the reflash over the best results with piggybacks that we tested. Given that this is the MOST CONSERVATIVE dyno, we are confident that customers will get at least as good as our results and likely better on any other brand of four wheel dyno. Results for reflash are peak HP up another 9hp, torque up another 10 points (more delta if you look off the peaks). Though our testing of EC's piggyback failed to confirm their claimed gains, their claims that a four wheel dyno gives much more consistency did get some support in our testing and only on the four wheel dynos did the dash not light up with warning lights, etc.


FiatDynoReflashShivs.jpg


Note operator above had not changed the gear calc to finalize the result with correct crossing of torque and hp curves, doesn't change results... but final below with correct crossing points.

ReflashDyno3.jpg



Finally, Shiv as the Tuner of OFT is not local to us, so he visited a DIFFERENT LOCATION with another four wheel Mustang Dyno and he ran a test of his reflash and he posted the results below. If you are keeping track of the math recall that we got about 10 hp for best piggyback real world at the wheels on our local dyno over stock factory Fiat calibration, and we repeated that same gain on Mustang Four wheel dyno, and then used that as baseline to test the reflash on the four wheel dyno and got about another 10 or so gain for a total gain of about 20 hp over stock calibration on a Fiat 124 that already has gains from full exhaust system. So, for consistency looking for Shiv to gain roughly 20hp over stock calibration...and that's what he got. What I like about results below is how well it backs up our gains we got for Shiv's reflash on the other Mustang Dyno noted above.

FiatDynoShivD.jpg
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:25 am

New 17x8 Ampliform on our Fiat 124....

Graphite above, Bronze below.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:41 am

Wow, the BIG price increase from Ohlins did sneak up on us....March 15th new price will be $300 more on Ohlins that we use on ALL our fastest toys here.

I am sorry I have not been ringing the bell for weeks on this, our MAP on this goes up the 15th and Ohlins is very strict about it....so these are the last days before $300 increase in the best coilovers a Fiat 124 owner can buy. Ohlins is factory standard equipment on hypercars from Pagani Huayra, Koenigsegg, etc. Ohlins has been the choice of champions for decades, they never sponsor because the best don't need to, so even Champs like Juan Montoya had to buy his sets.

A little back history. I loved Ohlins from my days racing motorcycles. When I bought my first Miata I called Ohlins asking them to make an Ohlins setup for Miata, got a lot of laughs in reply. I explained that we had MANY Miata race customers who were retired Pro Racers, guys who already understood Ohlins and would put them on a Miata if the application was available. From the days the Miata first came to market and became an instant weekend racer top pick, guys have retired to the Miata from Nascar, MotoGP, Indy Lights, Formula Atlantic, IMSA, and on and on. Old Racers never die...they just buy a Miata and keep having fun on the weekends at SCCA and NASA events! I finally convinced Ohlins to give it a shot, that was many years ago and now they love the Miata plaform and take this application very seriously. And now the Miata platform lives under the Fiat 124 too. Anybody local to our San Diego location wanting a fast yet smooth ride call me and jump in the seat of our Fiat 124 with Ohlins! Got a few local freeway 'test' ramps we can do at three times the posted 'suggested' speed that will impress you! One of the few setups that really can go from street to track and home again, dual flow valving that opens for high speed jolts does NOT exist on any of the other choices in this price range.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Been a while since we had the Good-Win Racing Project Fiat 124 to an SCCA event....and with new Reflash and offset bushings added it was time to see what it could do in SSM. I didn't actually have a set of proper Hoosiers that fit the Fiat so we ran some Toyo track day scuffs, good enough for the win and 1.5 seconds clear of the fastest ND in STR. The Fiat can go!

Continue to love the Fiat responsiveness with the reflash, car is fast and consistent in a way that it NEVER was with stock calibration.


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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:08 am

Shots by our own CJ from SCCA Autocross Yesterday.
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