PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DYNO

Miata Parts, Intakes, Superchargers, Headers, Exhausts, Shocks, Springs, Sway Bars, Brake Kits, Autocross and track mods.

Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby skeeler » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:43 pm

Sounds like it's time to convince Emilio that there's a market for 17x10 4-lug wheels.

Come to think of it, there's probably a bigger market for 17x7 for C Street racers and street drivers. Offset could be stock - 7 mm, so 38 mm.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:25 am

skeeler wrote:Sounds like it's time to convince Emilio that there's a market for 17x10 4-lug wheels.

Come to think of it, there's probably a bigger market for 17x7 for C Street racers and street drivers. Offset could be stock - 7 mm, so 38 mm.


I have taken a run at that a few times already, polite response was accurate: market too small currently.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Chuck H » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:19 am

I could see him not wanting to do a whole new design just for an ND 17x10 wheel, but assuming that the hole pattern is drilled after the flow forming steps, it seems like he could just have some NC 17x10 wheel blanks drilled with the 4x100 pattern rather than the 5x114.3. The wheel would be slightly heavier than absolutely necessary for the ND application, but it seems like a cheaper way to satisfy a niche market than doing a whole new wheel design.

But like Brian said, all you can do is keep asking and hope the perceived market is big enough to justify the up-front costs.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:12 pm

The issue with the 6UL in 5 lug includes both the weight...and the 52mm offset. We will need a 20mm spacer anyway, might as well make that a conversion spacer that goes 4 lug to 5 lug and we can just use the 17x10 with 255/35 tires that I already own for supercharged NC. Thus, at least for testing purposes this is likely what we do for now...
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:30 pm

Yet ANOTHER candidate for oil cooling solutions that work with normally aspirated, Turbo and Supercharged NDs.

Shown here installed with some brackets we made quick today in attempt to get car ready for track day this weekend... in black finish ABOVE the A/C condensor. This long slot shaped spot works....with both supercharger and turbo kit intercooler/heat exchangers. Bar and plate design is highly efficient, with min pressure drop. Custom made to the long and narrow but deep spot. Testing today on FULL throttle loop it worked better than any other setup we have tried with the turbo. Finally feel we are getting close...a setup that fits all ND configurations and works for 11.5 PSi turbo.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:09 pm

It is helpful to look at what FIAT did to the ND front end to get sufficient airflow/cooling of little 1.4 liter turbo motor in this same ND chassis. Upper half of ND Grille is blocked, not real, only bottom half is open. In contrast, Fiat has two functional grilles instead of one, each one is about equal to the single grille opening of the ND. And note how Fiat did extensive baffles that direct and compress all that air through the coolers. The taller Fiat nose allows lower grille to be dedicated to the Intercooler....and upper grille that is again as big as single air inlet on ND and yet dedicated to Radiator cooling. Fiat's taller and more blunt nose, a redesign of the ND front end, results in efficient turbo motor cooling, efficient dedicated intercooler cooling, all quite impressive....and as boosted ND drivers we are a little jealous!

FiataMiata4.jpg
FiataMiata4.jpg (84.74 KiB)

FiatIntercooler.jpg
FiatIntercooler.jpg (57.38 KiB)


More and more convinced that FAST BOOSTED ND track guys will need grille chop...or our new Carbon Miata grille upgrade to get enough air.... to go faster than the fastest normally aspirated ND guys....or you need a monster size oil cooler with turbo. To explain that another way, if you cruise the track with laps no faster than then best normally aspirated track ND drivers then you won't need a lot more cooling, our upgraded radiators and perhaps a Mishimoto oil cooler likely enough for you. But if you are able to use the power with sufficient suspension and brakes to go significantly faster than the best normally aspirated ND drivers then you are going to make the sort of heat load that really needs more air and significantly more cooling than Mazda planned with their minimalist ND grille opening. By the way....Fiat 124 comes with radiator that is at least twice as thick as ND radiator and has heat exchanger to dump oil heat into the coolant.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby jboemler » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:42 pm

Would the 124 radiator be a direct replacement in the ND?
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:15 pm

jboemler wrote:Would the 124 radiator be a direct replacement in the ND?


Nope, layout is different. Taller Fiat nose...meant it got taller rad.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:29 pm

Yet another OIL COOLER arrangement. Still trying to find a setup that works with small stock grille area, this one is a monster thick core but early testing shows the sort of heat rejection rates we want for track turbo use.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:56 pm

Autocross Practice Test and Tune Day. After the car was tough to drive at last event we made some updates. With more power and not enough tire we needed more roll resistance to tame the beast a bit, bumping spring rates to 11kg front, 6kg rear. I need to learn the setup and 10 practice runs today helped.

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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:53 pm

Autocross SSM Post Event Download.


First Competition Day on New spring rates...and Hoosier 245/40/17. Though we had previously run Rivals in same listed size the reality is the Hoosiers are far bigger than the Rivals and previous attempts to fit them on the car resulted in massive rub, some fender lip cutting of the tire, and even partially popping off the front nose. Now with more spring rate, 11kg, 6kg, and taller bump tops to help limit roll and travel the Hoosiers worked today. We are running quarter inch higher than previously, about 13.125 all around in effort to make the Hoosiers fit safe. Bottom line on new Hoosiers....today they fit and worked great, car stuck.

New 11kg/6kg rates on our Ohlins worked great....balance with Progress sways was great, car throttle rotated on demand and rarely surprised me, yet turn-in response was much faster than prior soft 9/5 combo. Have run as much as 13/9 on this car with these Ohlins but our local lots looked bombed out with serious pot holes and some compromise and compliance in rates is needed here.

TurboSSM.jpg


Now the part that did NOT work. Yesterday for practice stopped at our usual station that has 100 octane at the pump and put in my estimated fill for practice yesterday and competition today...and car ran on the high boost setting successfully yesterday...11.5 PSI. This morning it was my judgement that we needed just ONE more gallon to be sure we could complete our runs and drive out of the event. Arrived at same station that has 100 octane at the pump to sadly find "Sorry, Out of Order" on the 100 octane buttons! So, decided to blend in just ONE gallon of 91 octane thinking we had enough headroom in the high boost tune for that to work. That analysis proved dead wrong....lost both my first runs to detonation and ECU rolling out all timing. The ECU took such swift and aggressive action in the first run that I honestly thought I had busted the car or spun/overheated clutch in and briefly pulled off the course until power came back... and got a well earned DNF. Power returned and I alternated on and off it to test through finish knowing the run was already wasted. Thinking I had merely spun/overheated the clutch with dump start of the first run I let the car cool a lot....but second run same thing again and I finally understood the issue was serious detonation and cruised into the finish again well off the pace of what the car could do.

Shut off the boost controller and ran stock AVO kit 7 psi for third run and drove conservative to get a clean time to take the class lead, did slightly better on fourth run to cement the class win today by .8 seconds. Disappointed only because the car honestly was telling me by feel that it had more than a full second of additional speed potential and I know we left a lot of potential on the table. I missed top time of day for the morning by a few tenths and that's a bit frustrating too knowing the car had a lot more in it if everything had worked right. Nonetheless, it's another win for the AVO turbo..plus the new spring setup and the new tire setup and that's enough for one day....will look again for that Top Time of Day next event with pure 100 octane in the tank.

Post note...after first run DNF I could hear something with driver's rear tire but could not see anything while at the event....got home and monster bolt stuck in the tire. Thus, the DNF cost me more than time. :cry:
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:40 pm

Got email about engine mounts, we do have a set of steel mounts holding the turbo motor in the car, because the stock aluminum mounts have been known to crack and our friends at Long Road Racing explained that bad things happen when they do (motor hits the ground). There are some interesting inserts to make the stock aluminum mount act like a stiffer mount, but my fear is that transfer of more stress into the aluminum mount likely causes a faster rate of failure in hard use.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:39 am

Wow, the BIG price increase from Ohlins did sneak up on us....March 15th new price will be $300 more on Ohlins that we use on ALL our fastest toys here.

I am sorry I have not been ringing the bell for weeks on this, our MAP on this goes up the 15th and Ohlins is very strict about it....so these are the last days before $300 increase in the best coilovers a Fiat 124 owner can buy. Ohlins is factory standard equipment on hypercars from Pagani, Koenigsegg, etc. Ohlins has been the choice of champions for decades, they never sponsor because the best don't need to, so even Champs like Juan Montoya had to buy his sets.

A little back history. I loved Ohlins from my days racing motorcycles. When I bought my first Miata I called Ohlins asking them to make an Ohlins setup for Miata, got a lot of laughs in reply. I explained that we had MANY Miata race customers who were retired Pro Racers, guys who already understood Ohlins and would put them on a Miata if the application was available. From the days the Miata first came to market and became an instant weekend racer top pick, guys have retired to the Miata from Nascar, MotoGP, Indy Lights, Formula Atlantic, IMSA, and on and on. Old Racers never die...they just buy a Miata and keep having fun on the weekends at SCCA and NASA events! I finally convinced Ohlins to give it a shot, that was many years ago and now they love the Miata plaform and take this application very seriously. And now the Miata platform lives under the Fiat 124 too. Anybody local to our San Diego location wanting a fast yet smooth ride call me and jump in the seat of our Fiat 124 with Ohlins! Got a few local freeway 'test' ramps we can do at three times the posted 'suggested' speed that will impress you!
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby Brian » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:44 pm

Track day for Turbo ND this weekend, our Ryan Passey did a quick bracket to hold all our gauges as we continue to do testing with the Turbo setup, new oil cooler setup, etc. It's a simple panel that wraps under the plastic on the tunnel lifts the gauges up so the are not much in the way of the passenger seat. Won't be in the car forever but as we continue to go beyond what AVO ever intended with the kit it is good to have a eye on the critical.
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Re: PROJECT ND: Parts Development, Testing, Measurements, DY

Postby QuyV267 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:30 pm

ooh! That is nice! Good luck and have fun this weekend, Brian. I have an event myself with the new LSD installed. Thanks, again!

Regarding your AFR gauge, did you tapped into the existing sensor, or did you add an additional wideband sensor?
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