PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:23 am

I have been awake since 2am so I could squish this dyno into my day, will be brief with the details. Assume I will ignore any questions, I just don't have time for them. Very happy with results, OVER 240 ft/lbs for Torque FEELS GOOD, but first a review of how we got here.

Exhaust mods dynos. Lowest Line is Best STOCK Pull. Middle Line is Best Pull with just highflow Muffler Upgrade. Highest Line is Best Pull with full RoadsterSport Crosspipe, Midpipe, Muffler. Note all those exhaust mods make peak HP up 'only' about 15hp but notice total area under the torque curve is massively better, up over 30 Ft/lbs of torque through much of the middle rpm range, peak gains over 50 Ft/lbs at the low end thanks to faster spool for the turbo.

FiatFullExhaustDYNOs.jpg


After that above we added several items including our SportCat highflow downpipe, ported and polished exhaust manifold from NGEN, stock style 6 fin stuffed turbo from NGEN, E85 tune. No, we don't have separate dyno for just the tune, or just the sportcat, or just anything else, so don't ask, this is is what we have for all these additions combined, best of three runs that overlayed nicely, and the combined with prior chart of the exhaust mod progressions so you can see the BIG jump we made here from where we were with just exhaust mods and stock turbo:

Dynostuffed3.jpg


Then we let it cool 5 minutes and did a three more runs, best two of three very consistent runs over best stock run from long ago just to show how far we have traveled, pretty much over 60 ft/lbs of torque from low rpms to redline is a massive increase of area under the curve, over 70 peak hp gained from stock. Again stock hp was only 145 hp at the wheels, remember factory quotes CRANK hp at 160hp, but you give back a bunch getting through transmission and diff to reach the wheels with just 145hp measured at the wheels. So if we were quoting like the factory does, at the crank, this result is beyond 230 crank hp. More interesting is that we are over 240 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels, that's solid torque for a car that spools better than stock (not like a big 1752 turbo, etc). Somebody asked me if the stuffed turbo spools better than stock turbo and it does not, feels the same as it has been this last year or so, but note that our prior exhaust mods including big diameter crosspipe had ALREADY helped the car spool a lot earlier than stock Fiat 124 does, so it is no better spool than it was with all the exhaust mods and still better than it was when totally stock (notice both hp and torque lines below at low rpms compared to stock baseline best.).

dynostuffedfinals.jpg





Some notes on what comes next. Don't ask me which tune, I don't care to reveal that at this time, and there is some fine tune work to do here and we will feed some logs back to the Tuner. The black arrow high points are where the Air/Fuel is perfect, the fat red arrows are where the air/fuel is a bit too rich for optimal power. In other words, this power curve is good but could be better, with clean up of the tune my expectation is we would see 220 to 225 peak hp for this smallest of stuffed turbo options, and we would fill in that gap in the HP and torque curves where it is a bit too rich.

dynostuffedfinalnotes.jpg


I am thrilled with this result so far, this is now a really fast car, particularly at corner exit where it is right at the torque peak, and shifting can put me right on that 4k torque peak over and over, tons of fun! What remains is some minor fine tune work and my hope is feeding logs back to Tuner and some back and forth will yield an updated result that is more optimized like the blue torque line I added below. Today the conditions were far from ideal, weather report yesterday was 'Monsoon' conditions and this morning it was high humidity, low pressure, over 70f in the dyno room, far from ideal. Also remember we went with the SMALL stuffed turbo choice, not the larger choice that our friends at NGEN have for those chasing max peak hp.

dynostuffedfinalcorrected.jpg
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:52 am

Beware comparisons with numbers alleged from other dynos. As always, a dyno is an instrument for testing before and after of same car, same dyno, too many variables to mix in numbers from some other dyno location of some other brand of dyno that measures power with different methods and softward analysis, etc. So, how does this compare with other cars on this same dyno?

MSM-dyno.jpg


Our MazdaSpeed Miata with built 1.9 liter and stock turbo did over 180 hp, our 2019 Miata with the ND2 motor and just a muffler added did 168hp, both of them way WAY down on torque to the Fiat 124:

ND2Dyno.jpg

DynoMSM-ND2.jpg


The MSM also has a rich zone in the power curve, that dip in it's curve needs some work just like we need some work on the tune for the Fiat, not a big deal, but some room for improvement.

Best match we have for the Fiat 124 is my wife's Edelbrock Supercharged ND1 Miata, very similar HP peak, cleaner curve for torque thanks to a lot more work on the A/F ratios, still well down on the peak Torque the Fiat makes.

DynoRFCARBs.jpg
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby LateNights » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:48 am

Nicely done - iirc the Ngen 1446 is supposed to be good for around 220hp?
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby klikai » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:08 am

So it is a racing application
I don't understand why you did not go with the more top end power 1752, or a better options for top end power
Since it is racing..
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby LateNights » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:08 pm

klikai wrote:So it is a racing application
I don't understand why you did not go with the more top end power 1752, or a better options for top end power
Since it is racing..


If I had to guess, I'd say it's because the larger turbo needs a bunch of other supporting mods, where the 1446 is a true "plug & play".

And tbh, I've not seen anywhere near as much enthusiasm for the 124 as I'd hoped - I believe even Fiat themselves have recently said that they doubt there will be a successor - so building a big money motor really isn't going to achieve much in terms of showing potential customers what can be done...

(I kinda expected that to be the case in Australia (where I live) - the import scene is nowhere near what it is in the U.S - but I was hoping you guys might see more interest from the crowd that might not otherwise buy a Miata.)

Hell, by the time you do the math on the bigger turbo you kinda start looking at the "bang-for-your-buck", and just might seriously consider swapping the motor for the Alfa Romeo 4c engine - I believe that's what they've been doing with the rally version of the 124 because the little FIRE™ 1.4t just doesn't have a high enough ceiling if you really want BIG, reliable HP.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:56 pm

klikai wrote:So it is a racing application
I don't understand why you did not go with the more top end power 1752, or a better options for top end power
Since it is racing..


We do track and autocross. If track was all we did we might have done a 1752, but autocross is even more frequent for us so we need max responsiveness over max peak hp. Autocross is like a very tight little track, so tight that turbo lag really sucks for autocross applications. See our autocross videos in this thread in the prior pages to get a better understanding, more turbo lag out of every sharp turn would both add seconds to the total time and really kill the fun factor in using the car in such a tight course.
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby LateNights » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:37 pm

Brian wrote:
klikai wrote:So it is a racing application
I don't understand why you did not go with the more top end power 1752, or a better options for top end power
Since it is racing..


We do track and autocross. If track was all we did we might have done a 1752, but autocross is even more frequent for us so we need max responsiveness over max peak hp. Autocross is like a very tight little track, so tight that turbo lag really sucks for autocross applications. See our autocross videos in this thread in the prior pages to get a better understanding, more turbo lag out of every sharp turn would both add seconds to the total time and really kill the fun factor in using the car in such a tight course.


Is it correct that you kept the stock turbo wheels, in keeping with this line of thinking?

On another note - have you had much interest in a Helmholtz for the 124 - I'm hearing the turbo swap increases sound considerably, so I'm kinda keen to see if there's a way to curtail that somewhat...?

Also - I see on Miata.net you mention your hope that Fiat switch to the newer 1.3 motor - any idea how much longer they'll even produce the 124 (i.e what're the odds they make the switch before it's ended altogether)?
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby LateNights » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:40 pm

[quote="Brian"]Time to help the front end TURN better on autocross/track days. A proper front splitter!
Image

One for a rainy day - any chance you could bolt this back as far as possible so "we" can get a look at how it might look for those of us that'll have to run this on the street?

(Bonus points if you can take a step or two back to give a slightly better overall view :D )
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby Brian » Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:14 am

It would be a lot of work for us to remount that further back in normal install, see pictures in other forums for that, we don't want to drill a bunch more holes to make that happen here. Other folks have posted pics of regular install in forums such as https://www.124spider.org/
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Re: PROJECT FIAT 124, Testing, Measurements, Dyno, etc

Postby LateNights » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:31 am

Brian wrote:It would be a lot of work for us to remount that further back in normal install, see pictures in other forums for that, we don't want to drill a bunch more holes to make that happen here. Other folks have posted pics of regular install in forums such as https://www.124spider.org/


No worries - I hadn't even considered it might not be trivial...

Be well, and Thanks for the reply!
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